No 2 EU looks to Far Right for Votes
Andrew Ballard - Left Nationalist
Facebook (FB) is a peculiar world occupied by office workers, students and the unemployed. On it you can follow the latest intrigues of this or that friend, stalk the weirdest sectarians and at times find out somebody’s politics by where they post. The RMT, the Stalinist CPB and the “Trotskyist” Socialist Party of England and Wales (SPEW) have gone to lengths to try and convince us that the No2EU campaign is not right wing, not anti immigrant and certainly is not nationalist! FB exposes these claims as nothing but lies.
Leading Cardiff SPEW member Andrew Ballard has been doing his best to promote No2EU on FB, nothing wrong in that. The problem is, he is promoting them on far right, nationalist, racist and BNP controlled pages. Pages such as ‘British jobs for British people’, ‘get foreign labour out of Britain’, ‘UK jobs for UK workers’. The demands of these groups centre around getting foreigners out of the UK. For those who think we are making this up, have a look here at a copy of some of the pages he has been posting on. On these pages apart from posting links he posted this message:
‘British jobs for british workers and Italian jobs for Italian workers. The only reason the EU has such a large migrant workforce is to drive down workers wages and increase profits for the super rich. Vote no2eu on June the 4th.’
So much for a workers’ Europe then. Such slogans would find a loving home in the BNP and nationalists parties across Europe. Did he forget about internationalism?
So many of us on the revolutionary Left have been repulsed by this campaign, we have been called sectarians and all of the other usual crap internationalists get called. It is doubtful that Ballard is the only one, and is certainly not a loose cannon, he is leading cadre. When we said that No2EU is nothing more than little England politics dressed up in trade union clothes we never expected SPEW members to campaign on nationalist, far right and BNP controlled sites and pages. SPEW members need to sit up and wake up, good socialists are being dragged into a nationalist adventure by Left bureaucrats and vile opportunists.
” Be worth plugging the campaign (No2 EU-Yes to Democracy) here. Big subscription. Steal a few BNP votes!”- Ballards status and link to site last Thursday.
Leaving the same comment here as elsewhere.
At these elections the BNP will most probably win millions of voters across the country and the extreme right is now many times larger than the far left.
If you want to reverse this, as I do, then you should think very carefully about how you’re going to do it without actually engaging with people who have come to support the far right in recent years. I note that you offer no hint of a strategy of how you’re going to counter the BNP in your local county council elections.
These xenophobic and nationalist Facebook groups generally have tens of thousands of members and so are a useful forum for engaging with people who have a low level commitment to the far right.
The odd thing is I actually thought the CPGB had a decent understanding of the relationship between the BNP and their voting base and wasn’t prone to denouncing them all as racist, fascist Nazis beyond redemption.
Ignore this bit in my above comment:
“I note that you offer no hint of a strategy of how you’re going to counter the BNP in your local county council elections.”
Copied and pasted it from elsewhere without reading it through.
Issue is there was no attempt to counter the BNP, fascism or nationalism. Links were posted to fascist sites; the only aim to win support from fascists for the No2 EU campaign. ‘British jobs for British workers, Italian jobs for Italian workers’-straight from the BNP propaganda sheet, The Nationalist!. Thee is then the classic SP stuff about the EU, race to bottom etc, all of which comes after and behind the nationalist appeal for votes to fascists who post on fascist sites. Read this site. There could be a million supporters, this would not make this reactionary appeal defensible.
No attempt to make the socialist-internationalist case of jobs for all regardless of the country of origin, united working class struggle for jobs, homes and services-which used to be the SP line I might add-but instead the BJ4BW track.
You know ‘Stal1ngrad’ I reckon I’m more likely to take advice on how to tackle the BNP from someone who knows basic facts like the BNP’s propaganda sheet isn’t called ‘The Nationalist’.
Plus, I’ve they included a link to the No2EU site there’s material on there that tackles the BNP politically.
Oh dear Duncan, what a shame it has fallen to you to defend this shit. You have such a readable blog as well. Surely you can see that No2EU is dragging good comrades like yourself into a world of Stalinist fueled nationalism?
No2EU links where sitting happily on BNP controlled pages, next to links to the Nationalist BNP union ‘Solidarity’ with no mention of being for internationalism, being against deportation and class solidarity.
Surely you can see…
No I’m still shrowded in illusion, yet to be enlightened by piercing rational argument that will show the world as it really is. A touch of Young Hegelianism there I think.
My main problem with NO2EU is that it’s badly planned, it is simply announced a couple of months before the election. Most other parties had already been campaigning for several weeks by that point. Regardless of the programme of NO2EU, I should also point out the name doesn’t bother me either since it’s the European elections, it’s the wider significance of the initiative that matters and that’s why the Socialist Party is involved.
Also, I’m genuinely interested, does your new best friend Chris B know that you criticised those who denounced the strikes in exactly the terms he uses, repeatedly all over the internet, as idiots deceived by the mainstream media?
You don’t deal with the main point Duncan, what politics do you go to the class with and what politics do try to win people who have nationalist and reactionary ideas. Is it internationalism and socialism or what you lot are putting out? Don’t try and wriggle out of this question with moaning about the organisation of it, it was organised in such a way to stop debate, discussion and a little thing called democracy.
Chris B knows what we have written, I think we were right to support the demands of the LOR strikers that where decided at a mass meeting of workers. We have been consistently against the use of backward slogans and the uncercurrent of nationalism by the bureaucracy and opportunists.
what politics do you go to the class with and what politics do try to win people who have nationalist and reactionary ideas
Well if you’re in the CPGB you don’t, you spend all your time going to other left-wing meetings and arguing with people on Facebook because you orientate yourself to the existing socialist left.
I’m not sure how I’m ‘wiggling’ by ‘moaning’ about the organisation. In fact, when NO2EU was first discussed in our branch before conference this was the line of criticism I raised then and it’s still my main problem with the the electoral alliance.
Your point about debate and democracy doesn’t hold. This was an electoral alliance announced at short notice and while you may have prefered their to be a conference for you to flog papers and move motions calling for immediate world communism organising this would have left even less time to prepare for the elections.
This isn’t ideal, I’m all for giving groups like yours the opportunity to argue your politics, and I think it connects back to my point about the failure to organise this sufficiently in advance of the election.
As a constituent part of this alliance, the Socialist Party debated the relative merits in branches before endorsing participation at our conference. I have no idea whether the CPB did the same, it wouldn’t surprise me if they didn’t. For what it’s worth I was very sceptical when we first discussed it in our branch.
With regards to the ‘main point’ I think Phil over at AVPS has produced a better defence of the politics and significance of the initiative, as well as rebutting some of the lines of criticism, than I reproduce here:
http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2009/05/in-defence-of-no2eu.html
To that defence I would add that for a campaign that has ‘repulused’ so many on the revolutionary left we’ve assembled an impressive platform of socialists and militant trade unionists to stand as candidates.
Though I think this is implicit in Phil’s argument I would also add that as Marxists, like at the LOR dispute, we need to be involved in these initiatives to argue our politics not standing at the sidelines eagerly waiting to recruit disgruntled members of larger leftist groups.
We do spend our time taking the Left up politically, because you cannot build a workers’ party whilst the Left is in such a state. We also are engaged in many other campaigns which are not aimed at the Left, such as organising on campuses to win student support of the possible UCU strikes, anti war campaigning and solidarity with asylum seekers just to name a few. In these campaigns we will criticise the Left if they do things or say things we disagree with. Nothing wrong in that.
You are still not answering the question I asked you previously. What politics do we go to those with backward ideas with? Nationalism or Socialism? Simple question comrade, you comrades are trying to win British Nationalists with Left Nationalism, is that acceptable or principled? Phil’s post is pretty dire, and does not deal with what I am asking you.
If it was discussed in your branch then you are part of a very luck few it seems. It was not discussed in the wider movement, not discussed in the RMT. RMT members have had no control, input or even the courtesy of being able to vote on No2EU. The bureaucracy along with the Stalinists and the opportunists in the SPEW have stitched all this up behind the backs of the class.
You have assembled so many “impressive” people: Stalinists! Left Bureaucrats! and Tommy Sheridan! Well done comrade what an impressive list. You have not got anyone on board from the revolutionary Left apart from yourselves, and your commitment to revolutionary politics is about as solid as your commitment to fighting for a workers’ Europe.
LOR and No2EU are completely different, one is a conscious attempt by bureaucrats, Stalinists and “Trotskyists” to put forward backward politics to the class. Whilst LOR represented an opportunity for socialists to fight reactionary and nationalist ideas that have sprung up because of the lack of political leadership.
Good defense comrade :)
Racial nationality and constitutional nationality are not the same thing Mr Brennan. If you cannot organise locally and nationally then how do you hope to organise internationally? To identify with and feel solidarity with your neighbours is a positive thing. Though I wouldn’t expect you to understand that as you spend your time snooping and backstabbing your would be comrades. If you are so against the idea of nationality then why support Palestine. Reactionary idealists like yourself will never make a difference in the real world.
“The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end .” Leon Trotsky
p.s. Have fun on Facebook but take my photo off this page. We don’t have socialism yet and I own the copyright.
Andrew I wrote this article – If you write shit or do shit expect to be held account for it mate. Now do you think it is acceptable for you a supposed Communist to post the crap you have been posting on nationalist and far right pages? Do you think the slogan ‘British Jobs for British Workers – Italian Jobs for Italian Workers’ is the best way to win people away from backward ideas and nationalism?
But can you quote Trotsky coming out with any nationalist crap?
british jobs for british workers sound’s right to me just like french workers want jobs for french workers and spanish workers want work for spanish work’s how is that racist ?
didn’t really get were the dude is going or trying to go here , that wrote this maybe he’s just like racist to a point where people are not allowed to have an opion and is maybe missing the actual point of the issue.i don’t agree with the bnp but they are a political party just like all the rest and have to be aloud to have a vioce and to think the labour party has manage to create racial tension in the uk like nobody else has within the last 7 years sorta like what is racist explain your self don’t just spit word’s comment’s and inner feeling’s explain yourself
hippy marc
adjust me i am robot
love peace unity
Chris S/B whatever. That photo was taken by Brennan and I’m reporting copyright infringement. If you want to take credit for this spurious attempt to blacken my character and discredit no2eu then so be it. I’ll invite everyone from the various groups I posted to comment here. I think all the members of those groups should know how they are being branded as racist. It’s only fair to give them the chance to voice their opinions. It’s easy to badmouth people behind their backs.
Andrew,
From what I can see no one is accusing every individual in these groups as being racist. I agree we should engage with these people, not with nationalism though, but rather with internationalism. A basic socialist principle!!! There is also nothing wrong with organising on a national basis, you start from reality (we have nations), but when organising nationally you need to have an international perspective. History has proven that socialism in one country does not and can not work. Calling for this in any sort of way is leading us down a dead end and is treacherous to the workers movement.
Also as for your Trotsky quote, the means and ends are dialectically related and one does not and can not justify the other. The end is never known till we get there, and the means, will to some extent, determine the end. You can not seperate the two.
Nobody has said that Ballard is racist, that he has written anything racist, or that all the members of these FB groups are racist. The only mention of the word “racist” in the article refers to some of the people that control these FB groups. If you want to dispute that, then do so directly. Any other talk of improper use of the word racist is just crap.
It is clear however that Ballard is an unrepentant nationalist, that he spreads around nationalist filth, and knows nothing about working class solidarity. I don’t give a toss whether you base your concept of nationality on race or constitution or whatever. Nationalism is a poison which we will drive out of the workers movement. It is a divisive ideology which is actually more dangerous to the working class than racism.
Ballard has blackened his own character by coming out with the crap that he has. The SP should certainly discipline him, if not expel him outright. However the article is absolutely right to point out that they are making an opening for this kind of reactionary crap to come into the workers movement through their tailing of left nationalism in No2EU.
I sincerely hope Ballard does invite others onto this blog. Exposures like this deserve as wide an audience as they can get. And he can carry on displaying what an idiot ‘left’ nationalist he is.
I think you should question what the EU directive on the free movement of labour does for the worker. How does it benefit the working class? What is the effect on variable capital and the falling rate of profit? How will you drive out the “poison” of nationalism. What is clear Mr Harney, is that you nothing about me other than the few quotes and posts over which you obsess and even less about the theories which should form the basis for your ideology. In fact you are a small minority compared with the huge numbers of ordinary working people who identify with the idea of nationality regardless of origin of ethnicity, race or religion. The majority of people; the ‘demos’ in Britain count themselves British, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, or English. We’re all waving flags. They don’t all have to be red.
i ask why take a random picture from the net and place it within your blog i’m surprised you didn’t super impose a bottle of beer within the the person’s hand and tatto bnp on his head just to push your properganda we are looking at leagl action against you.
do you know this person moreprobaly not so i ask are you part of the labour party just dishing spin to confuse the really the point and reason
and my mum didn’t work in primark was you a shelf stacker
He looks way too sexy to be into politics. Has anyone got his number.
it has been implied by the content of what has been written and the use of the picture of a random person from the net taken out of content and without permission really does infringe copyright copyright is there for a reason i’m sure that mr.ballard would not have allowed his picture to be used with such written content that implies he is racist i have back tracked we have the information needed
Andrew, you just convinced me I was right to put this up when you wrote “We’re all waving flags. They don’t all have to be red.” – I tell you what mate, us socialists are waving red flags is it the butchers apron for you?
You never got back on any of the questions I asked you, or got back on the political implications of campaigning for a Left Nationalist campaign with nationalist slogans on nationalist web pages.
Poly, Thanks for the advice, I look forward to your “leagl” action…
Andrew, you ask a lot of questions. Why not try giving some answers if people are misunderstanding you?
What flag do you wave?
How do any border controls benefit the working class?
Cathy, seeing as you have the same IP address as Andrew you probably already know his number. Indeed, you may even be him. How sad!
daistation, You beat me to posting that!
Sorry Chris I thought you were just spouting rhetoric. The slogan British jobs for British workers may send shivers through you but that was the slogan being used. I embellished it to include Italian workers to draw parallels for people who are angry at being treated like cattle and are looking for answers, highlighting the international nature of the current crisis without preaching Marxism to the uninitiated. What slogan would you use? ‘International jobs for international workers?’
I’m his wife, you knobjockey.
So you are happy to go out as a socialist and campaign on that slogan? The political implication of such politics is immigration controls, detention centres and keeping johnny foreigner off this island. Myself and my comrades have a completely different approach: working class solidarity across borders, the destruction of fortress Europe and fortress Britain. You may feel a little upset that you got singled out for trying to win nationalists with nationalism but the politics you are going to the class with are not socialist, not internationalist and are against the interests of the working class in this country and in Europe.
daistation. I like all the flags. The welsh flag is good because of the dragon but the origional St Davids flag has more authenticity about it. The union jack smacks of jingoism so I’m not so fond of it but I like the union it represents. The red flag is the most powerful emblem in the world because it transcends borders but I love em all.
Come on Chris. You are being deliberately obtuse. That’s not my favourite slogan, I adapted an existing slogan to draw parallels between the struggle in Italy and the struggle in Britain as I’ve already said. There is no point preaching international solidarity to people who’ve not had the baptism of awareness that Marxists are privy to.
Comrade Ballard.
There is a difference between “racial nationality” amd “constitutional nationality”, although neither is a rigorous concept of nationality as such. You have named two competing myths; the one a Hitlerite bogeyman (in an age where Hitlerism is as such a bogeyman) and the other a formalist abstraction.
The substance of this superficially pedantic point is that it is no more relevant to the broad picture of the class struggle to object to the EU on legal-constitutional nationalist grounds than on Anglo-Saxon chauvinist grounds.
On the legal constitutional level, it is plain that the British constitution is quite the consummate barrier to the workers movement. It is the British (and before it, English) constitutional system which has restricted trade union and pre-trade-union organisation since the late middle ages. It is Britain, furthermore, which constitutes the hard-right of the EU, which insists on the sharpest anti-working-class character it can get out of it. And more fundamentally, it is the constituent nation states of the EU which actually run the damn thing, not an autonomous power in Brussels. It’s a lash-up, not an empire.
The slogan ‘British jobs for British workers’ features the word ‘British’ twice. Even with the caveat ‘Italian jobs for Italian workers’, its implication is perfectly clear – the nation state is the natural level for economic organisation to take place, and the natural level for the working class to organise itself (to ensure its rights). I note with some amusement that it is us who are, in your estimation, reactionary idealists! What could be a more reactionary ideal than the alliance of the bourgeois state and the workers movement?
It’s simple. Racial nationality is defined by ethnic, genealogical origins. Constitutional nationality is through choice. Nobody would have complained about British Italians, British Pakistanis, British Indian, Malaysian, Afghan, Iraqi, French, German, Polish etc workers applying for and getting jobs in the Lindsey oil refinery. What was objectionable was the fact that a whole crew of workers were shipped in who were not British nationals and not asylum seekers. It devalues labour for the workers already here and undermines the rights of the Italian workers who are forced to live on a barge. If you think the Italian workers are any happier than the British workers they replace then you are severely naive. To not support these workers because of a slogan you are not comfortable with is treachery. You play straight into the hands of the ruling classes who love nothing more than to divide the workers on issues such as race and nationality.
I started reading the discourse but honestly coulnd’t be fucked listening to the rhetorical shite that the likes of Stalingrad can come out with. I think you and Chris are a class of your own. ‘Paranoid, idiolistic dreamers.’ You Claim to believe that International socialism is achievable, and yet, you feel that merely by joining a group that may harbour Right wing nationalists, racists, facists, whatever your tiny mind likes to bundle these peaople together as (in order to debate and put your point across), then you are betraying the cause. How then do you hope to achieve this international utopia, where every one is represented, and everyones voice heard, IF, you think that by merely attempting to put your point across to those who’s opinions differ from yours is repulsive, or anti socialist. You are deluded individuals. Without engaging all walks of life, and people of all opinions, you have no route to true socialism, just an ideological wet dream for dick head bohemians wankin over secretarianism. Dont bother replying to this post as I am fed up with arguing with you. You cannot concede a point, and instead resort to character assasination, petty insults, or rediculous defenses to non existent physical threats. Good luck to you and your cause
If you could stop picking holes in slogans, choice of words, or facebook groups that people use, and started lending your weight to actually furthering the cause, you might do alot of good, considering the effort you put into masturbating you own egos. I must appologise for my continued use of profanity, but you really are an antagonistic bunch of spineless couch potatoes. The more of read of the conversation, the more riled I become. You really have lost your way at some point, and instead of spreading the word like a true socialist would, you are more than content and happy to spread how you think people should not spread socialism. I could easily rant all night, but I feel that it would be lost on you. All that I can ask is the you excuse the swear words and actually take onboard what I am trying to impart to you. IF YOU WANT GLOBAL SOCIALISM THEN YOU ‘MUST’ ENGAGE WITH EVERONE
P.S. The original point you raise against british jobs for british workers is also naive and idiolistic. There are few enough jobs for those already living in this country, and it is also true that the free movement of labour within the EU only undermines workers wages. Do not however confuse this as a race issue, (as I am sure you would love, as an excuse to discredit yet another conrade) this is realistic economical fact.
So the conclusions we can draw-Ballard is an open nationalist who supports BNP policies. His mate James blames immigrant workers for lowering wages-not British bosses.
As for spreading the word like a true socialist Jmes, what word are you spreading with this nationalist nonsense?
“t’s simple. Racial nationality is defined by ethnic, genealogical origins. Constitutional nationality is through choice. Nobody would have complained about British Italians, British Pakistanis, British Indian, Malaysian, Afghan, Iraqi, French, German, Polish etc workers applying for and getting jobs in the Lindsey oil refinery. What was objectionable was the fact that a whole crew of workers were shipped in who were not British nationals and not asylum seekers. It devalues labour for the workers already here and undermines the rights of the Italian workers who are forced to live on a barge. If you think the Italian workers are any happier than the British workers they replace then you are severely naive. To not support these workers because of a slogan you are not comfortable with is treachery. You play straight into the hands of the ruling classes who love nothing more than to divide the workers on issues such as race and nationality.”
The above Ballard quote should be used to beat him with wherever he shows his face. So, fighting nationalism with internationalism is somehow playing into the hands of the ruling class? Whilst supporting BJ5BW is fighting the bosses? The basic argument the SP used to have is ‘jobs, homes and services for a”, regardless of nationality, make the bosses pay;. This is dead it seemns. The idea that only those at Lindsey have the right to comment is bunkem as none of the people posting nationalist defences were there, whilst some posters have worked in workplaces with large immigrant worker percentages and had to overcome the divisions which have been created over centruries of ruling class hegemony. The idea that to re-inforce that will somehow break it is political bakruptcy.
I do think it is clear from the division of posts who has the most confidence on this issue. Glyn, James and Ballard resort to typcal Stalinist assaults. The internationalists prefer to use reasoned argument.
Poly (Glyn Matthews) you have a duty to inform his branch and the center of Ballards activities and his statements.
well lot’s of word’s and that’s about it you had my vote why because i have read some of mr.ballard’s post’s and have sat with him glyn and a few other’s in person and was left thinking yes a party that understand’s and has no in fighting but now i have read that spin sadly i realise you are just the same as all the others it’s a job it’s an income and you don’t really care about the uk or the thought’s or feeling’s of those you represent here so i will not vote for you now and feel that maybe i should spread the word that you are just like the rest of the political parties turning on your own spreading lie’s and properganda spinning rubbish to try to get more votes the real out come you are turning voter’s away .chris c and Stal1ngrad maybe this is why you and your party don’t do very well in the poll’s.To take one of your own and then try to make/convince people that he is a not a good person is really sad in my book all the above could be construtive but instead you have dragged the whole thing into the gutter and wasted yet another good oppertunity to openly debate something good and meaning full .point’s of view like that are for you and your member’s to debate not openly within the pages and thread’s of the net but at your local meeting’s because we don’t know if it’s just chris c here with many personalities creeping through putting up his wiered and wounderful idea’s of the world that he maybe would like to see and live in.it would be good for you to attend one of the weekly meeting’s here in cardiff so you can put your thought’s directly to mr.ballard in person and allow him to explain his thought’s to you as writing on the net and talking in person are very different situation’s but i really don’t think that will happen chris will it so we look forward to coming to one of your meet’s in the near future to ask you to explain yourself within this situation.
All the point’s made are good this could be a good debate but sadly you are fighting each other rather than uniting and coming to some objective out come
hippy marc
adjust me
i am robot
love,peace,unity
quote Stal1ngrad [Poly (Glyn Matthews) you have a duty to inform his branch and the center of Ballards activities and his statements.]
poly is not glyn he is my brother this just show’s how parinod confussed and diluded you must be and that come’s across to the voter which in turn losses votes
Stal1ngrad we have already met on the boards here in the space between and you were doing the same thing then destroying a good open debate by trying to turn the debate into a race thing is that all you really have in your head as a main policy because it’s a good head line grabber
Seems like perfect sense to me to try to win over workers from fascism to a left anti-EU alternative by leaving messages on their websites/facebook pages.
Wouldn’t you like them to buy the Weekly Worker if the CPGB pitched up on a counter-demonstration to the BNP?
Chris Brennan at 08:29 on 11 May
why do you hide yourself on the boards at face book ?
back to the ludicrous personal insults guys. I am surprised you have the time with all of the vote catching with fascists. Talk to nationalist workers? you don’t do that, you concede their nationalism and put a cover on it.
Issue of me being a shop steward-I know you have a very low IQ Glyn but a basic recall function surely? Have you had a mental… Read more breakdown lately over forlorn love issues? I know Paul Hunt used to enjoy taking the piss out of your exploits with women.
Amazing Glyn you felt need to defend this twat Ballard, post on my wall and then remove? I invite you to Birmingham Ballard on Saturday, we can have a nice polite chat about your insults.Chris Brennan at 08:36 on 11 May
exact words were ‘yes I was’, you then asked was I at the USDAW caucus and I replied ‘no, buy my mother, who works at Morrisons, was’. I know SPers are incapable of selective quoting but come off it.
I would love to see your left nationalism and support for BJ4BW work in Primark Glyn, with it’s heavily immigrant workforce.
‘Brennan represents nobody’.haha, whistling to keep your spirits up. With such vituperative attacks me thinks the ‘lady’ doth protest too much.
His mate James blames immigrant workers for lowering wages-not British bosses.
I do not blame immigrant workers for low wages, the fault lies with the bosses. But the fact remains that so long as there is someone from a less economically fortunatate country, willing to work here for less than your average british worker, then wages will continue to fall. Open borders is a lovely principle, but we do not have the influence or power at this time to change the corporations that want to drive down the wages, so we must change immigration policies to take this power from the bosses.
This is a very dangerous game that some people on the left are playing.
As socialists we are internationalists, the working class has no country as Marx said. Workers of the world unite, remember? We defend the right of workers to live and work anywhere with no restrictions. Any concession to nationalism is a concession to bourgeois conciousness, the nation state is a bourgeois construction. Workers might think reactionary things, since the dominant ideas of any society are the ideas of its ruling class, but it is the job of socialists to fight this, to explain what is really going on.
For those of you who think that we can only beat nationalism by joining it you are totally and utterly wrong (do you think we can only beat sexism and racism by being a nicer kind of sexism and racism?). The point is that there is a fightr on in the workers movement between those who stand for international solidarity with workers regardless of nationality and colour, and those who, for whatever reason, want to make it an issue and draw lines through the working class to divide us.
Workers Power has comrades going to the PCS conference this year with a resolution condemning the British jobs for British workers slogan, which is a nationalist slogan used by racists and reactionaries to divide us. The SP members at that conference will have to make a decision (especially as Mark Serwotka is also against this slogan) will they speak and vote against it or will they support it?
Members of the SP should look to the work they did in the Gama dispute over the use of foreign labour three years ago – an excellent example of international solidarity (uniting to defend migrant labourers jobs and increase their pay). What has happened around LOR and the Shaws dispute is a dangerous turning point, it could lead to disaster.
And on Andrews points about flags – those flags are the flags of our ruling class, our flag is red. They are not equal, one flag is the flag of the age of capitalism which we are fighting to get out of, the other is the flag of our future.
James, when you say, “IF YOU WANT GLOBAL SOCIALISM THEN YOU ‘MUST’ ENGAGE WITH EVERONE”, then I don’t think anyone in Communist Students will disagree with you. We have nothing against posting on these groups and all manner of other discussions with people who hold reactionary anti-socialist views (and this description is not meant as some moral slur on these people – just a recognition of where their ideas are). Unlike many on the left we have no principled objection to debating even the BNP if we think that it is tactically the best thing to do to break people from those ideas.
Where we do disagree I think is on *how* we engage with those who hold reactionary ideas. Of course we can join these groups “in order to debate and put your point across”, but that does not seem to be what Andrew was doing. From what I have seen he was simply echoing and reinforcing the prevalent nationalist viewpoints that exist in these groups. This is not debating and certainly not putting across the point of view of socialism which Andrew claims to hold. It was an opportunist attempt at fishing for votes for the No2EU project.
Whilst we are incorrectly berated for not wanting to engage with those that hold reactionary ideas, Andrew shows that he is the one who actually has no hope for these workers, other than as voting fodder, when he says “There is no point preaching international solidarity to people who’ve not had the baptism of awareness that Marxists are privy to.”
What?!?! Are you saying that these workers are too thick to understand that British workers have more in common with their fellow workers in Italy, France, Germany etc., than they do with the boss class? What makes you think this is some special knowledge that only ‘Marxists’ are privy to? Lots of people are well aware of this without already understanding the complete workings of capital, the need for a revolutionary party, etc.
Stop patronising working class people and start arguing for socialism!
P.S. Andrew says of the LOR dispute: “To not support these workers because of a slogan you are not comfortable with is treachery.” But we did support these workers! See here: http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/02/critical-support-for-wildcat-strikes/ and here: http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/02/ignore-or-engage-lessons-from-the-wildcat-strikes/ What we didn’t do is refrain from challenging nationalist sentiments.
I would like to reiterate what daistation has written. The reason this post was put up was not because No2EU stuff appeared on far right controlled and nationalist pages. It was put up because you are trying to win people away from nationalism etc with Left Nationalism when you should be putting forward internationalism and socialism. It is a shame, whilst I don’t agree 100% with how SPEW approach elections, but at least you used to have the self respect to stand as socialists.
By all means argue with people on nationalist sites but if your a socialist, argue for socialism!
Chris, you are a frustrating individual. How would you propose to solve the problems that free labour movement within the EU causes? How would you tackle the fact that it drives wages down? The more saturated a country is in workers, the more their labour devalues, it is simple fact. If you have to many cars on the market, and not enough buyers, those cars lose value. If you have too many workers and not enough jobs, the labour devalues. Socialism does not fall from the sky, you have to construct a viable plan to combat big business, and open borders in the current climate, is not viable. I would be pleased to here your ideas
It seems that this debate has really dredged up some nasty people. Nice to see Ballard has such eloquent and serious people defending him, does him credit.
Socialists are part of the working class movement, we argue and debate and recruit and work with workers all the time. Nationalism is a poison within the workers movement, Rosa Luxemburg said as much. We must fight it and work to build a progressive working class movement which starts from the principle that we are all workers, regardless of colour, creed or national background.
How do socialists deal with claim that foreign workers are driving down wages? Simple, a united fight back by all workers for better conditions. If German workers are brought to Britain on higher wages then we fight for the British workers on the site to have their wages levelled up. If Latvian workers are on a site then we fight for their wages to be levelled up.
As long as capitalism exists there will always be poorer workers willing to come to Britain (or France, Germany etc) to work for low wages simply because the wages are higher than their country of origin. Socialist can respond in two ways:
1. “That is very sad but it is undermining British workers conditions so good bye.”
2. “Workers being super exploited like that is a disgrace, we fight on the trade union principle of organise all the workers and fight collectively for their conditions to improve.”
If you take the first route then you can only prevent immigrant labour undermining British conditions by preventing the movement of workers. This is a reactionary utopia, reactionary for obvious reasons and utopian because workers will always try and find good wages. (maybe we should prevent poorer Scottish workers from moving to London to get higher wages too? In fact anyone moving to London!)
The second is the only progressive way forward since it makes it impossible to move cheaper workers to the UK, since the union movement will automatically move in, organise them and fight for higher wages, negating the exploitation. This is the ABC of trade unionism, let alone socialism.
Finally on the whole ‘come into a working class community and say that. Get serious – if a working class community is racist then you are saying we cannot organise and do anti racist work? How would anything ever get changed? What about if people are pro war? Can we not discuss anti war politics with them? Most workers accept capitalism as normal – so I suppose we can never discuss socialism until they spontaneously-already think of it themselves?
Can I just briefly ask CWI members, you have a section in Nigeria, do you think that they do not have the right to travel to the UK?
I would like to reply to marc above-my posting on somebody’s status after being viciously abused. This follows the abuse I received from other welsh SPers, including stuff such as ‘your name sounds Irish, perhaps you should fuck off home’ and also ‘come to wales, we will make you feel welcome with a good kicking’.
I would like to meet these ‘comrades’, and you yourself in Birmingham this Saturday. I will look for you somewhere around the BJ4BW contingent.
“Chris, you are a frustrating individual. How would you propose to solve the problems that free labour movement within the EU causes? How would you tackle the fact that it drives wages down? The more saturated a country is in workers, the more their labour devalues, it is simple fact. If you have to many cars on the market, and not enough buyers, those cars lose value. If you have too many workers and not enough jobs, the labour devalues. Socialism does not fall from the sky, you have to construct a viable plan to combat big business, and open borders in the current climate, is not viable. I would be pleased to here your ideas”
The way that this question has been approached since the 1st International through to the Red International of Labour Unions (RILU, or Profintern) and since then into the Trotskyist movement has always been to aim to construct an international of labour organisations as the basis for quick solutions to these bread and butter issues.
Going through the European Parliament is in itself a retreat from the real work that has to be done in strengthening the links between, for example, the RMT and the SUD in France, and especially those independent unions organising workers involved in extraction of raw materials in Kazakhstan that your CWI comrades are apparently involved in… and that is not even to speak of the more difficult work of linking up the general and craft unions internationally, and trying to promote industrial unionism within them…
Of course the fundamental crime of the No2EU project is that this is exactly what it jettisons, in favour of short term ‘solutions’ – manifestly nothing more than cynical attempts at currying favour with a nationally isolated TU bureaucracy and/or recruitment of more backward sections of the British working class.
Note the hostile reaction of the European TUs to BJ4BW. How the fuck do you seriously expect No2EU to achieve anything in terms of preventing the undercutting of wages? The only way you can possibly hope to go is towards tariffs, tightening of immigration controls etc and protectionism, which has a nasty little track record of isolating national bourgeoisies and leading to, dare I say it, interimperialist war. That’s precisely why socialists should have been quite clear they didn’t support BJ4BW, it’s not like this is a new thing.
Of course with that in mind the Socialist Party is only being consistent in supporting No2EU. The same can be said of the anti-Irish abuse. In the past maybe the chauvinism of that whole tradition has been less insipidly dangerous than now. Billy Hutchinson ring any bells? What about defending the use of the closed shop for ‘Prodisant jobs for Prodisant workers’?
Got to laugh at Mr. Ballard’s attempts to use Trotsky in his defence. Not entirely applicable, but this quote gives a better impression of what LD’s thoughts might have been:
“A trade union led by reactionary fakers organizes a strike against the admission of Negro workers into a certain branch of industry. Shall we support such a shameful strike? Of course not. But let us imagine that the bosses, utilizing the given strike, make an attempt to crush the trade union and to make impossible in general the organized self-defence of the workers. In this case we will defend the trade union as a matter of course in spite of its reactionary leadership.” Trotsky 1939
Revolutionists in the US actually went so far as to cross picket lines on a point of principle in those days and many of them paid the price for that. They may have been right or wrong. Crossing the picket line would not have been the right thing to do at Lyndsey. But some people sully the name of those brave folk and our whole tradition with their anti-Irish, anti-Italian bullshit. They cross the picket line of the whole working class.
Just as a reminder for the SPers who were present and others who couldn’t make it along for the day.
Staythorpe 24 Feb:
‘What do we want?’
‘Foreigners out!’
‘When do we want it?’
‘Now!’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzTf8G177a0&feature=related